Talk:Shades of Deep Purple

<^>v!!This album is connected!!v<^>

• All song titles serve as redirects to this album, have their own pages, or have had disambig links placed at the appropriate article or disambiguation page.--Hraefen ^Talk 20:19, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot 05:33, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Scheherazade (Rimsky-Korsakov)

There's a trivial note at the Scherezade article that the first two or so minutes or "Prelude:Happiness" is based on the first movement of Rimsky-Korsakov's Scheherezade. That note really belongs here, and not there. DavidRF (talk) 21:10, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

• It belongs to both. Arrangement by such a well-known band as Deep Purple is a notable adaptation of the composition.Garret Beaumain (talk) 13:23, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
• A user Jasonfitz seems to hate Rimsky-Korsakov for some reason and deletes him from the article, thus violating the composer's rights.Garret Beaumain (talk) 16:50, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
• Whoever keeps removing Rimsky-Korsakov from article, I strongly warn you that these actions may be deemed as vandalism. The tune of Prelude/Happiness is from Scheherazade, which makes Rimsky-Korsakov one of the song's authors. Beaumain (talk) 07:32, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

There is no vandalism or violation of copyright here. This is not a record or a CD, but an article about an album! "Prelude/Happiness" is copyrighted by HEC Music as a composition of Deep Purple and this statement is printed on every edition of the album.[1][2][3][4] No mention of Rimsky-Korsakov anywhere. An expert of music composition identifies the instrumental as an arrangement of a small portion of Scheherazade,[5] so maybe it's Deep Purple who infringed copyright, but there is no record of anybody suing them for plagiarism. The name of Rimsky-Korsakov can stay in the article, but I'm not so sure about citing him as an author of the track, because there is no official track listing with his name. Lewismaster (talk) 08:13, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Style

Quite simply, this article reads terribly and isn't cited. I personally wouldn't be up to it but I think someone needs to re-write it to get it up to scratch. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.170.137.157 (talk) 00:48, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

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Merger Proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was to merge Lewismaster (talk) 20:04, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

---

I propose that Deep Purple Debut Tour be merged into Shades of Deep Purple. I think that the content in the Deep Purple Debut Tour article can easily be explained in the context of the album production and scheduling. A large part of the Deep Purple Debut Tour article can be used as a properly referenced background section for the Shades of Deep Purple article and other content is already present in the album article. Dates and venues of that 1968 Scandinavian tour are unknown and not relevant, besides the fact that it was the first tour of Deep Purple and the first time the song of this album were played live. Lewismaster (talk) 18:53, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Shades of Deep Purple/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Ritchie333 (talk • contribs) 10:25, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

I've had an original UK Parlophone LP for about 25 years and know the album and band's history inside out. No obvious problems with referencing or layout that leap out, bar one or two citations containing interviews being perhaps worth discussing, so this should be quick to pass. The DPAS' Simon Robinson is a known expert on the band and thorough researcher, and I assume he wrote the CD liner notes, so if you used them, this is very likely to be all factually correct. Some of the wording is a little confusing with some jargon, and I'll list those issues in more depth soon. More later.... Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:25, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for picking up so promptly this review. I could find no name associated with the writing of the CD booklets of the first three DP albums, although Simon Robinson wrote and signed the booklet for Deep Purple in Rock. If you have confirmation of his involvement his name should be added in the reference section. Feel free to directly correct or suggest any changes in wording and syntax, to comply with the British English use stated at the top of the article. I look forward to reading you review. Lewismaster (talk) 12:22, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

I've found This Barnes & Noble source which credits Simon Robinson with writing the sleeve notes. He's been writing DP reissue sleeve notes since the late 1970s. Have to get back to "real" work now, but I'll start listing issues later today. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:49, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Okay, specific comments follow:

Lead and general issues

• Three paragraphs are about right for the lead. I would merge the fourth (single sentence) paragraph with the third

Done.

• The quotations in the article are a little long. You need to be careful with these, as overlong quotations can be considered borderline copyvios.

I trimmed them down.

• The album covers, all of which are non-free, should be as small as possible ie: the size used in the article (180x180?) but no more.

For Wikipedia:Non-free content#Meeting the minimal usage criterion and Template:Infobox album#Cover, 300x300 pixels is the ideal size.

• I don't believe the audio sample of "Hush" has a good rationale for non-free use. The accompanying text should explain explicitly why the information contained in the audio cannot practically be represented as text.

I used the automatic rationale provided by Wikipedia when uploading audio samples. I customized the rationale to accommodate the use of the song in the article.

Background

• I'm not sure about at a lot of this. Yes, it's cited to reliable sources, but it reads more about what influences were generally around in early 1968, rather than anything specific to do with Deep Purple.

I'm not sure about this myself and asked for peer review about it, but nobody answered. I think that the musical trends developing in the UK at the time were important for the musicians of Deep Purple and critics remarked how this album is a mix of different genres in vogue in 1968. I tried to relate the band and album to what was happening in British music in that period, in particular to psychedelic and progressive rock. In my opinion, the accessibility of the article for a reader who is not necessarily an expert of Deep Purple or of the music of the 1960s is enhanced by paragraphs like this. This is especially true for debut albums where a little more background can be useful to the casual reader. What do you think about it? I, as a reader, would like my encyclopedia to be very user-friendly and accessible.

Okay, I think I would just generally ensure that the influences were ones that Purple specifically called on when they first got together. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:48, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

I added those influences in the Musical Style section. Lewismaster (talk) 20:49, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

• "In this situation of creative turmoil during the summer of 1967," - who had "creative turmoil"? The Beatles had just released one of the most commercially successful and critically acclaimed albums of all time, after all.

Syd Barrett more likely. The turmoil belongs to the British music scene, coming up with new bands, genres and milestone albums in such a short time span. I changed the words accordingly

• "the members would get on and off the band" - how do you get "on and off a band"? I'd go for something like "the group would contain a revolving cast of non-permanent members"

The words were taken from the CD booklet and from Thompson's book. I changed words as suggested.

• "to Lord the expert guitarist Ritchie Blackmore" - "expert" is POV, just "guitarist Ritchie Blackmore" will do - his experience is covered by the following sentences

Done

• "where he had met Carlo Little" - this is the second mention, so per WP:MOSNAME, just "Little" will do here. Also we don't hear anything else about him after this sentence - do we know why he wasn't considered for the final line-up? (Given he taught Keith Moon how to play and turned down an offer to play with the Rolling Stones, I'd say he should have been a strong candidate)

Done. The band did not ask Little to join because they had already hired Bobby Clarke, who was a celebrity among drummers.[6]

• "For the bass guitar slot, Lord signed up his friend Nick Simper, whose fame at the time came from his membership" - this is awkward phrasing. We already know Nick Simper is a bassist - how about "Lord suggested that Simper join as bassist"?

Rephrased

• In my sleeve notes for Deep Purple Anthology, Bobby Clarke is named multiple times as Bobby Woodman. I had at least one other book source that referred to him as such.

The drummer played in different groups using both his real surname Woodman and his pseudonym Bobby Clarke. He became famous with the name Clarke playing with Vince Taylor in the 60s. The CD Booklet uses Bobby Woodman, Thompson uses Bobby Clarke. Wikipedia has an article for Bobby Clarke, which I guess is his best known name.

Hmm ... unless that article is a featured article (which it isn't), I wouldn't trust it for anything really (and even then I'd use the sources cited in the article rather than the article itself) In fact, I think only the age of Bobbie Clarke (created before 2010) prevents me from putting a {{blp prod}} tag on it. I would personally go with Woodman as I think that's what name he went under when he auditioned for Purple, as well as being his real name, so its the most appropriate in this context. Here are a few other related sources that refer to him as Woodman : [7] [8] [9] Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:48, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Changed to Woodman. Lewismaster (talk) 20:49, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Early days of development

• This section can be simply called "Early development"

Done.

• "Roundabout retired at Deeves Hall" - "retired" is what you do when you give up a career for good, this needs rewording

Changed.

• "that summoned dozens of aspiring vocalists to audition for the new band" - this is probably redundant, the rest of the preceding sentence clarifies what we need to know here

Cut.

• "Rod Stewart was among the many would-be-frontmen who were dismissed" - confusing, suggest "Rod Stewart attended the auditions, but was unsuccessful"

Changed

• "Clarke was unhappy with the direction the band was heading" - according to interviews I've read (sorry, can't remember where) it was because he couldn't get on with Blackmore (not too hard to believe, that)

According to Thompson and Simper, Clarke was too old-fashioned, bound to rock & roll style and not happy to experiment. There is no mention of Blackmore, but instead his dismissal appears to be a common decision. The CD booklet says that it was Mick Angus, one of the vocalists at the auditions, who first expressed dissatisfaction with Clarke's playing.

• "and some occasional glimpses with the instrumentals" - occasional glimpses of what?

Rephrased

• "before the call came from Roundabout's management" - suggest "before being contacted by Roundabout's management"

Changed as suggested

• "to reduce the number of instrumental tracks on the album" - can you reword this, to avoid two sentences both ending in "album"

Done

• "With those three well inducted" - this doesn't make sense

Changed

• "which had earlier been covered by Cream and The Maze, the band Evans and Paice came from" - you don't need the last part of this sentence, we already know who The Maze are

Cut

• ""Hey Joe", a song originally, but disputably, written by Billy Roberts" - who disputed it? Certainly it was credited on Fifth Dimension as such, and released when Jimi Hendrix was still doing club gigs in New York.

The author of the song is disputed. Billy Roberts copyrighted the song, but his partner Len Partridge claimed to be co-writer of the song.[10] Added reference for this dispute.

• "The Jimi Hendrix Experience had recorded a version of the song in late 1966, which was used as the main inspiration for the arrangement although, as well as "I'm So Glad", the track was heavily blown up and stretched in length" - I think this needs rewording, "blown up" means either an explosion or a significant enlargement in size. How about "The arrangement was mostly based on the 1966 hit version by Jimi Hendrix, but included a section of Maurice Ravel's ...." (sorry, can't remember which piece it is)

Rephrased. The classical music section of the song is a note by note execution of The Miller's Dance from De Falla's ballet. It is confirmed by the music expert Janell Duxbury in her book Rockin' the Classics and Classicizin' the Rock and here [11]. The rhythm underneath is reminiscent of the Bòlero by Ravel. I changed the reference in the Musical style section accordingly.

Okay, if a commercially published book says it, and it's more recent than a 45 year old LP back cover, then we should use that. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:40, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

• "The band also picked up a song" - "The band also recorded a song" sounds better

changed word

Recording

• "The band began intensive rehearsals after an agreed set list" - "intensive" is POV, and who agreed the set list and why?

Rephrased

• "Ritchie Blackmore convinced a friend of his, Derek Lawrence, to produce" - produce what? " to be the album's producer" would be better

Changed as suggested

• "recorded singles and sold them over to the United States" - confusing, how about "recorded singles for release in the United States"

Changed as suggested

• "remaining positively impressed" - confusing, "positively" is probably redundant

Cut

• "in between March and April" - there isn't anything between March and April, this needs rewording

Done

• "as well as two newcomers" - "as well as two new songs" sounds better

Changed as suggested

• "both quickly written and arranged by the band for that purpose" - what purpose?

The purpose of recording the demos. Rephrased.

• "Help!" was also previewed by EMI" - I don't understand what "previewed" means in the context

Rephrased

• "his grandmother's favorite song" - "song" is an easter egg quote, it's not obvious where it links to (particularly on a mobile)

Rephrased

• "This was the debut tour for the band and the first time the new songs were played live," - we already know this from what's written, and I don't understand what the second part of this sentence means

Rephrased

• "the cable containing Tetragrammaton's decision to sign them had arrived" - what does "cable" mean? Suggest "Tetragrammaton had confirmed they wished to sign the band"

Rephrased

• "the budget provided by HEC and used for promotion and equipment was nearly spent" - convolutive, just say "HEC had nearly spent all their budget for promotion and equipment"

Changed as suggested

• "In this period, the band relocated at Highleigh Manor," - just say "The band relocated to Highleigh Manor"

Done

• "There, with aforementioned Derek Lawrence producing" - we already know this, just say "There, with Lawrence"

Done

• "they quickly recorded the material they had intensively rehearsed and which made up their live set" - overcomplicated, suggested "they recorded the recently gigged material"

Changed as suggested

• "For this reason the songs had to be arranged and rehearsed in advance" - we've already been told the songs were rehearsed several times, this needs rewording

Fixed

• "recorded almost live in one or two takes" - what do you mean by "almost live"?

Fixed

• "with prelude entitled "Happiness"" - should be "with a prelude entitled "Happiness" (and isn't this based off a bit of classical music too?)

Rephrased

• "completing the recording of their debut album" - don't need "of their debut album", we know it is

Cut

• "The tracks required quite a large amount of mixing" - "quite a large amount" is POV, for example Garbage's Version 2.0 took (IIRC) a year to mix. I think this album had slightly less time!

Rephrased

• "The final mixing was made later the same day, concluding the band's duties in studio." - don't need the second half of the sentence (and it is grammatically incorrect anyway)

Cut

Release

• "The finished album was taken to Tetragrammaton representatives that had come to London and the material proved to be more than satisfactory for the label" - the wording sounds too complicate. How about "The finished album was taken to Tetragrammaton's representatives in London, who approved its release"

Changed as suggested

• "band members were clothed in hip styles and fashions at the famous Mr. Fish Emporium, where they did the obligatory photo-shoot" - "hip styles and fashions" and "famous" are POV, and since when was a photo-shoot "obligatory"?

Rephrased

• "and the band notoriety grew considerably" - grammar, suggest "and the band's fame grew considerably"

Changed as suggested

• "and raced up the Billboard Pop Chart, ultimately peaking at No. 24" - words to watch, just say "and reached number 24 in the Billboard charts". If it really raced up the charts, it would have hit number one

Done

• "However, the TV passage" - what's a "TV passage"?

Rephrased

• "Shades of Deep Purple was reissued many times all over the world, often in a set with the two following albums recorded by the Mk. I line-up." - this sentence is unreferenced

Added reference

Musical style

• "who cured the arrangements" - "cured" is something doctors do, or a thing you do with ham, this needs rewording

Done

• "transpires from the riffs much similar to the song "Foxy Lady" - grammar problems here

Rewritten

• "with rather complex lyrics provided by Evans;" - complex according to whom?

Simper and some critics considered Evans' lyrics unusual and complex. They did not refer specifically to these songs. Cut.

• "was a common tread at the time" - what does "tread" mean in this context?

The h is missing. I changed word anyway.

• "bluesing it up" - what does this mean?

I copied the expression from here [12]. Put into brackets as a citation.

• "the cover of "Hey Joe" was arranged inserting parts taken from El sombrero de tres picos ballet by Manuel de Falla" - are you sure about that? I thought it was a Maurice Ravel piece (hence why the original LP back cover [13] says "Dedicated to Bobby, Chris, Dave and Ravel" - Bobby, Chris and Dave being Bobby Woodman, Chris Curtis and Dave Curtiss respectively)

As said above, all sources confirm that the classical inserts are from De Falla's ballet.

Touring

• How about "Live performances" as a header? We can include MkII's treatment of the material

I'm not so sure about that. This section is truly about touring. I added some text about the songs performed by the Mk II line-up at the bottom. Do you think it needs a separate sub-section?

• "Deep Purple performed from the start a very loud and hard rocking live show" - confusing wording

Rephrased

• Screaming Lord Sutch is already linked once

delinked

• "receiving mostly cold receptions" - confusing, this could be interpreted as meaning they always caught the common cold

Fixed

• "Ian Paice's explanation for their lack of touring and promotion in England, reflected to Melody Maker:" - sentence is missing a finite verb

Rephrased and trimmed

Critical reception

• "More criticism rained down on them" - suggest "They were also criticised" instead

Changed as suggested

• What make blogcritics.com and about.com reliable sources?

David Bowling of Blogcritics is the author of books about music [14] and staff writer at the music reviews website Daily Vault[15] and I think that his opinion should be considered valid. He has no connection to the band and the network where his contribution was published is controlled by a team of staff editors who work with the writers.[16]

Okay, "controlled by a team of staff editors" was the key phrase I was looking for here, so as long as it's clear its his personal opinion, it can stay. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:14, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Dave White of About.com is a freelance music journalist and former radio DJ and can be considered an expert in what he writes about.[17]. He has no connection to the band and writes for a multi-awarded news network.[18]

However, Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 162#About.com from a few months back concluded that there was not sufficient editorial control for sources to be considerably reliable. Remember that our guidelines for self-published sources say that anyone can claim to be an expert on a topic. So I'm afraid I think this one will have to go. People will be looking at this section and trusting the opinions to be a good reflection of what contemporary critics think about it. Some (including me) think the album is okay but Made in Japan it is not!

This has become more important for GA reviews recently after a lengthy discussion on the suitability of Piero Scaruffi reviews, who would doubtless fit all the criteria you stated above, yet we concluded that his personal website was not a reliable source and opinion should not be used in a professional capacity. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:14, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

I concur with the decisions taken. It's hard to keep track of all the discussions going on on Wikipedia and I was not aware of this one. I removed all the references to About.com. Lewismaster (talk) 20:49, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Charts

• The Japanese chart position has a tag against it

Removed

Summary

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, no copyvios, spelling and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

As it stands, there's a bit of work to do, mostly in the prose and ensuring that everything confirms to a neutral point of view, plus there are a few issues with non-free rationales and the caption on the audio. All of this should be easily fixable, however, so I'll put the review on hold to give you a chance to do that. Thanks for all the work you've put into the article so far. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:50, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your review. I will start working on the issues that you raised as soon as possible. Actually, most of your remarks are about sentences that I inherited when I took over the article. I should have re-written it from scratch! Lewismaster (talk) 18:28, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

That's sometimes the nature of GAs, I've certainly said "but I didn't write that bit" in response to review comments myself! Don't worry, IMHO the hardest part to solve is unverifiable and / or badly sourced content, and there's little of that here (plus it helps I've read up on the band's background myself). We'll get there and get this passed one way or another. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 18:56, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

I just published the first revision of the article following your suggestions. There are a few points that need discussion in the Background and Touring sections. I'm waiting for your input after a second check of the article. Thanks. Lewismaster (talk) 18:47, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Okay, I've done a bit of a copyedit, and I think this article now meets the GA criteria, so I'm happy to say the review has passed. Well done for creating a thorough and informative article about this album. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:16, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your review and all the instructions you gave me. I will treasure them for future works. And now back to The Book of Taliesyn! Lewismaster (talk) 18:09, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Edit War

Apparently User:Radiopathy started an edit war after my reverts of his edits of this article's track listing. I explained my reverts on his talk page like this:

I notice that you keep reverting a track listing on the article Shades of Deep Purple that was formatted following track listing examples in the Project Albums manual of style. Every example there is the product of ample debate. When there is a disc one/disc two distinction the sequence of numbers does not start again on every side of the LP, but is continuous. I think that what has been decided on the MOS is the correct way to format a track listing, but if you think otherwise please start a new discussion there, instead of opening an edit war on a GA article. Lewismaster (talk) 12:51, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

I have no interest in entering in an edit war, but I formatted the track listing following the indications of the MOS in dozens of articles without any complain and I cannot see how now what I did is wrong. I hoped to have explained my reasons quite clearly, but for User:Radiopathy apparently it was not enough, so now I wait a reply and an explanation from him. Lewismaster (talk) 20:07, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

The second side of nearly every vinyl album released to date begins with track one; the track count does not continue from side one. The example at the project page is just plain dead wrong and needs to be changed. In the meantime, stop edit warring, and stop harassing me over this issue. Radiopathy •talk• 23:49, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Edit: The example you provided was inappropriate; this is the project's guidance on vinyl albums: Albums originally released primarily on vinyl or cassette should similarly list the tracks of each side separately under sub-headings named "Side one" and "Side two". Notice it says "separately" , not contiguously. Radiopathy •talk• 00:28, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with you. I don't think that "listing separately" has necessarily something to do with numbering. Listing means to put them in the proper order, separated in two or more sides. I think that, just like on a CD, the content of an LP should have a contiguous numbering, just separated in two sides. This kind of numbering is also more practical for use in the Personnel section, where you can list the tracks a musician played in using numbers. Just as I said, if you think the example on Wikipedia:WikiProject Albums/Album article style guide which confirms my theory is "plain dead wrong", complain there, but do not start an edit war on this article. Lewismaster (talk) 14:20, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

I was asked to give a third opinion. My views at Talk:Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band#Track listing numbers have not changed, which is to use contiguous track numbers, giving three featured articles that do this, to show precedent. We can ping @Dan56: if you want another view.

Incidentally, regarding "stop edit warring", it takes more than one to edit war, and if "the example at the project page is just plain dead wrong and needs to be changed", then start a discussion on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Albums/Album article style guide and gain consensus. I won't be reverting myself as I feel I can give a stronger argument when the article is on the wrong version. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 14:33, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

That's a misinterpretation of the style guide, IMO, that the line about "separately" (rather than "contiguously", as Radiopathy put it) refers in any way to whether the track numbers should continue into the second track listing template. "Separately" just means that there should be a separate template for that second side/disc. As I said at Template_talk:Track_listing#Track_numbers_for_vinyl_albums, none of us should be concerned with music industry practices/tradition/idiosyncrasies, but with what makes the most sense to the common reader/general audience, who know that "Mandrake Root" is the 5th track on this album. Dan56 (talk) 16:44, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that all makes sense. Somebody who's reading up on the album on this "new fangled" computer technology is also highly likely to be aware of new modern conveniences like CDs and iPods and to have got used to seeing track listings in that manner. Bear in mind that a typical reader for this sort of article might nowadays well be somebody who wasn't even born when vinyl was popular. In which case, the status quo (as represented by the three FAs I listed earlier) should be restored. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:56, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

My two cents For what it's worth, I wrote that album style guide and intended it to mean that the track listing numbers go from 1 to whatever, irrespective of side or disc. As pointed out above, there are lots of featured articles using this format. Vinyl records only so happened to need to be split up into halves but it's not like an album originally released on LP is somehow two separate works anymore than a long book split up into two codices is two separate books (not that oftentimes, the page numbers will continue from the first volume in instances such as this). —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 17:40, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm clearly in the minority here, but I don't see the logic in going to the trouble of splitting the album into two halves, per the vinyl and cassette, and then using the numbering system from the CD. On a vinyl album, we all know you never flip the thing over, look at side two and see #5, 6, 7 etc, but that's what's implied by this contiguous numbering system. If it's only going to be paying lip service to the side one / side two concept, then don't bother, and just have a straight list as on a CD. It's easy to mention in the text or a note how the LP was originally split. Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:07, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Everybody: you're wrong. Everyone here except Bretonbanquet has said that they think that the numbering should continue on side two. This isn't about what anyone thinks; it's about reliable sources - in this case, the label of a vinyl record. It is also about reality - and as usual, people here are trying to make Wikipedia into an alternative universe rather than an encyclopedia. So, in a nutshell, it doesn't really matter what any of you think. If you can produce a copy of this or any album where the numbering on side two is continued from side one, rather than beginning again from track one, by all means, it should be noted in the article, because that would be an accurate representation of how the record was presented to the public, as well as a reliable source. Problem solved. By arbitrarily deciding on a numbering system that is contrary to what actually exists in the real world, you are using original research, which some people here tend to frown upon. As far as the problem of younger people not understanding the numbering: even today's young people are capable of working out the logic behind something with two different "sides" being numbered differently.

I also don't agree that the sides should be eliminated completely; an album article is supposed to reflect the reality of the initial release, which, for most of the best music ever recorded, is vinyl. It is our responsibility to convey that reality accurately, not to revise it. Radiopathy •talk• 23:28, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't think we're going to get anywhere reaching a consensus with comments like "Everybody: you're wrong" and "most of the best music ever record, is vinyl" (not if your favourite music is classical, it isn't!) Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 08:56, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Can we at least agree that for albums (unlike Shades of Deep Purple) that were originally released on multiple discs -- either vinyl or CDs -- the track numberings should start at 1 for each disc, like this, as opposed to continuous numbering like this? I think the album article style guide should be updated to state this clearly. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 13:29, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Comment: There is an issue that where a vinyl album released before the early 1980s has since been reissued on CD, it's more than likely that the reissue contains bonus tracks. You then have the situation where you have to consider how to number the bonus tracks: if you have side two of an album listed as "tracks 1 to 5", for example, the bonus track numbering suddenly jumps to 11 following 5. I'm not saying it's incorrect to label the vinyl side two as starting from track 1 again, just that the addition of bonus tracks throws another spanner in the works. Richard3120 (talk) 14:10, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, can we at least agree to start the numbering at 1 for each disc of a multi-CD album that was not released on vinyl, again using Stand Back: The Anthology as an example? — Mudwater ^(Talk) 14:17, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I'd like to think we can come to consensus. Now, I'll invite Parrot of Doom, who was principally responsible for one of the FAs I mentioned upthread, The Dark Side of the Moon, and keeping it there, where the track listing is a contiguous "1-10". "Money" is track 6, not track 1. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 14:24, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

First of all, this debate is not about content but about style. I don't think that anybody here considers one way of numbering or the other a fundamental part of an article. This is about the information that we want to convey with a track listing. So it is important to know what editors think on this matter and dismiss other peers' opinions as useless is contrary to what Wikipedia is about. As Radiopathy so kindly reminded me on my Talk page, these matters require consensus not edit warring.

Anyway, from this debate emerges that opinions on this technicality are divergent, obviously because we give to a track listing different meanings. I think that a track listing should, at first glance, tell the reader how many songs there are in an album in the sequence chosen by the artist. This is the info that I want to give to the reader with the track listing template and the fact that the original vinyl was numbered from 1 on each side is trivial at best. A contiguous sequence of numbers is what works best to give this information with clarity and I don't feel that I am betraying any source using this style of numbering.

I agree with Mudwater, for the same reasons that I mentioned above, that different discs of a multi-CD album should have separate numbering. Lewismaster (talk) 16:15, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion has moved to Template talk:Track listing#Track numbers for vinyl albums Lewismaster (talk) 13:19, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Cover dispute

A dispute started with Esszet about the cover which should be featured first in the infobox of this article. Template:Infobox album article specifies only that the cover must be the original one, but our opinion on the matter diverges on the meaning of "original". Before starting an edit war, I would like to have some more opinions on the matter. Below you can find our exchange of opinions copied from Esszet talk. Lewismaster (talk) 21:06, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

You reverted an edit for the album cover writing "The US version may well have come out first, but since they're a British band, the original British version should take precedence." This sounds odd and new to me. Can you validate your claim with some MoS discussion or rule? To my knowledge the cover of the first edition is what should be on top of the infobox, because it is the "original cover". Deep Purple were a British band signed to an American label which released the album way before EMI, so Tetragrammaton cover should be on top. Lewismaster (talk) 07:25, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Well, in rare cases, the original cover is left out entirely; on Led Zeppelin, for example, the ‘original’ cover, which had the band's name in turquoise instead of orange (see the ‘Artwork’ section), isn't there at all (probably for fair use reasons – it's not hard with the more familiar cover there to ‘practically convey with words alone’ what it looks like), but the point is that the original cover isn't necessarily the main (or in this case, even the official) cover, and so the original cover shouldn't necessarily receive precedence over the main cover. For an example of a very similar principle, see Out of Our Heads; the UK version, which was released several months after the US version, which, unlike that of Shades, is significantly different from the UK version, takes precedence in the entire article. I realize that that's not what the template documentation says; it should probably be changed to ‘main cover’, ‘official cover’, ‘most familiar cover’, or something like that. Esszet (talk) 11:40, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

In the case of Shades of Deep Purple the US cover is not only the first published, but also the the best known one. The album sold very well in the US and was ignored in the UK. It is also in the inset of the Remasterd Edition cover by the British EMI and for all these reasons it should be considered the main cover. Lewismaster (talk) 17:29, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

It appears as though some versions of the CD reissue use the US cover in the insert; go to amazon.co.uk and search ‘Shades of Deep Purple’, and you'll see that others, including the first one that comes up, use the British cover. In any case, the official Deep Purple website uses the British cover, so that should be the main cover here. Esszet (talk) 19:37, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

I would argue "original" here is vague. In practice, the most common cover may make a better illustration. Also, this would be an ideal use for {{Extra album cover}} as it would make sense to display both covers. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:53, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Plenty of pages have two covers (see Nothing Was the Same), or sometimes a cheeky GIF file showing alternating covers is used. Either way, why not use both? They are both 'primary identifiers' and both 'official covers of work' so fair use.Dennisthemonkeychild (talk) 06:40, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

To Dennisthemonkeychild. Thank you for your comment. The article already use the {{Extra album cover}} template to display both covers. Our dilemma is which cover should go on top of the infobox? Which one should be considered the main cover, as they are both original? I think that it should be the first published US cover and Esszet thinks that it should be the UK cover because Deep Purple were British. Can you help us out of this impasse? Lewismaster (talk) 07:19, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

To Lewismaster. My apologies, I did not help you in your debate at all. Let's see if I do better this time. As an English Deep Purple fan I would obviously like to see the English cover there, as they are an English band. However, as the US version was released first (confirmed by multiple sources on my bookshelf) I believe the US cover should be shown at the top of the page, in pride of place. The fact that the album reached #24 on the US chart and did nothing in the UK until the very many reissues years later only supports the argument. Apologies Esszet. Dennisthemonkeychild (talk) 17:35, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Even if the British version sold very poorly initially, it probably was, at least to the band, the main version, and we should respect that here. Sure enough, on the US iTunes, the reissue cover with the British cover in the insert is used, and as I pointed out above, the official Deep Purple website uses the British cover as well. On a completely unrelated note, the album was also reissued with a third cover in the UK in the 70's or 80's (see here), and we should probably add that as well. Esszet (talk) 18:33, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

If the UK cover is now in common use then that does change the argument for me somewhat, although as you have used the word 'probably' I still vote for the first-release cover first. A page like Love It to Death uses the original album cover even though that cover is no longer used and hasn't been since the first pressing, so NOT the 'common use' cover. If we use the argument that the commonly used cover should be the one on the top of the page then that may require a review and a guideline on WP:MOS-ALBUM. Perhaps this argument should be made on a policy talk page rather than this specific page. See also Killing Is My Business... and Business Is Good! where the no-longer available, but original, cover takes precedence. Are you both sure you don't want to use a GIF that alternates both? I can make one if you like. Dennisthemonkeychild (talk) 06:45, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

No more covers for this article, please! Per Wikipedia:Non-free content#Guideline examples cover art from various items in an article should be kept to a minimum and used for visual identification only in the context of critical commentary of that item. The three covers of this article are cited in the text and their presence is justified, but this is not a display for every edition of the album. We cannot know what the band thinks about this matter or who manages their website so what is published there is inconsequential for this debate, which is about a common criterion for every cover display in an infobox. Lewismaster (talk) 17:49, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Just to be sure, both covers under discussion are feature din the article now, right? Anyone know which cover i used when the album is represented in official books and websites about the band? FunkMonk (talk) 18:45, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, both of the covers under discussion are featured in the article at present. As I pointed out above, the cover on the official Deep Purple website is the British one, but I don't have any official band publications about the album, so I don't know which cover appears in official books about it. The true guiding principle for what cover to display in the main inbox appears to be artist's intent (or at least acquiescence); that would be why the original covers that are no longer in use are used on Love It to Death and Killing Is My Business... and Business Is Good! (for a similar example, see Open Up and Say... Ahh!, where the censored cover isn't used at all). Just as we don't know who manages the band's website, we don't know whose decision it was to make the original US and UK covers different or which one the band really intended, and the continued use of both covers only adds confusion to the matter. The upcoming vinyl re-issue of the album uses the original British cover, but others (such as this one) use the original American cover. In cases like that, the safest thing to do is use the cover issued in the band's home territory, where they presumably had the most control over what it looked like, and that's unless we have compelling evidence that for whatever reason, one of the covers issued elsewhere was the one the band really intended. Lastly, I wouldn't say that what appears on the band's website is completely inconsequential; official is official, and so unless we have compelling evidence that it's wrong for some reason (such as the exclusive use of the American cover on re-issues), we're more or less bound by it. Esszet (talk) 21:12, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

AllMusic uses the UK cover taken from a CD of 2011. [Amazon] lists editions with both covers, which apparently had the same rate of appearance during the years. But what I really need to know is if the principle that the first published cover goes on top of the infobox has general validity or not. The infobox template article remarks that "Only the earliest known date that the album was released should be specified". Shouldn't this principle be applied also to the album cover? Lewismaster (talk) 21:32, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

I was invited here to comment and this is my opinion from skimming through the discussion and the article... I dont think how other articles and their use of the infobox is relevant (WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS). Since what qualifies as original has been brought up here, I want to point out that the adjective "original" is defined by Merriam-Webster as "happening or existing first or at the beginning" ([19]), soooo... I would support having the US cover at the top because that was the version--same tracks and track order, sure, but packaging is also part of what an album is--that first existed. I don't know if nationality of the artist should be a factor, because there have been artists who find far more popularity (and notability) in a country not of their origin, but we could still have a caption at the top read "North American cover" or something. Dan56 (talk) 03:30, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS actually supports the use of album covers in other articles to try and figure out a precedent for what we should do here:

For instance, when an actor recently died suddenly, a discussion broke out about adding "the late" before his name in one of his movie pages. In order to judge the necessity of such a phrase, other articles of famous deceased actors could be checked, which was done. Generally, these other articles do not use this sort of reference, and thus the newest article did not. While not a strict OSE reasoning, the overarching concept remains, that of precedent and consistency throughout the Wikipedia project.

As for the necessity of making the ‘original’ cover the primary cover, a Wikipedia administrator once told me that ‘Most of Wikipedia's "rules" are descriptive, not prescriptive. If the documentation doesn't reflect consensus, it's the documentation that's incorrect (even if it was correct at one time).’ Thus, although that doesn't make much sense to me (there would be less confusion if the ‘rules’ were prescriptive), we don't have to rigidly adhere to the template documentation in deciding what cover to put in the main infobox. Of course, it isn't entirely clear if there is a consensus in this case; the best approximation we can come up with appears to be artist's intent, but even that doesn't appear to be used universally (see The Number of the Beast; an explanation of what the artist intended is in the ‘Album artwork’ section). Even if there were a consensus behind that, however, artist's intent isn't entirely clear in this case, and so we'd have to use something else. My vote is still for the UK cover; they are a British band, and so the original British cover should be the main one. I'm also personally in favor of making artist's intent the main criterion for deciding what cover to put in the main infobox, and in situations where that isn't entirely clear, the safest thing to do is to use the cover from the band's home territory; they presumably had the most control there over what it looked like. Esszet (talk) 01:20, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

To Dennisthemonkeychild, Walter Görlitz, Dan56, thank you for your contributions to the discussion. It appears quite clearly that such matter was never discussed before and there is no consensus for the use of the non-free covers in an album infobox. As Esszet clearly demonstrated with many examples, the temporal criterion which has the cover of the first edition exposed on top of the infobox to identify the album is often disregarded. The geographic criterion that Esszet proposes is also rarely applied (see for example Lightning Strikes, where the "main" cover is simply the most popular one). Do you think that this matter should be discussed further in a new section of Template talk:Infobox album? I think that reaching consensus to set a general rule would be better than proceed at random like editors appear to be doing now. Lewismaster (talk) 09:00, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Lewismaster, and yes, I agree. Move to a broader discussion. We will get more input and hopefully find a consensus that can be used from now on. Dennisthemonkeychild (talk) 09:47, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. Esszet (talk) 22:18, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

One place to have a broader discussion about this would be Template talk:Infobox album, but I think a better place, where more editors would be likely to contribute, would be Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Albums. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 00:01, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Very well, the discussion was moved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Albums#Use of multiple album covers. I summarized the main points of this discussion, but feel free to leave there your opinions on the matter. Thank you. Lewismaster (talk) 07:38, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

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